马斯克与苏纳克对话 AI

0:01Okay, all right. Well good evening everybody welcome Elon. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me We feel we feel very proud. We're excited to have you right so I'm gonna start with some questions and then we're gonna open it up Let me get straight into it. So Bill Gates said there is no one in our time who has done more to push the bounds of science innovation than you

0:21Well, it's kind of insane. Yeah. Well, that's it. That's a nice thing to have anyone say about you nice coming from Bill Gates but Oddly enough, when it comes to AI, actually, for around a decade, you've almost been in the opposite and saying, hang on, you need to think about what we're doing and what we're pushing here and what do we do to make this safe and actually we shouldn't be pushing as faster as hard as we are.

0:42You've been doing it for a decade. What was it that caused you to think about it that way and why do we need to be worried? I've been somewhat of a Cassandra for quite a while. Where people would tell people, we should really be concerned about AI, like what are you talking about?

0:57Like, if never really had any experience with AI. Since I was immersed in technology, I have been immersed in technology for a long time, I could see it coming. But I think this year was, there have been a number of breakthroughs. I mean, you know, the point of which someone can see a dynamically created video of themselves.

1:20Like, it's already created a video of you saying anything in real time, or me. And so the sort of the deep peak videos, which are really incredibly good, in fact, sometimes we're convincing the real ones. And deep reel. And then obviously things like Chai GBT were quite remarkable.

1:43Now I saw GPT-1, GPT-2, GPT-3, GPT-4, the whole sort of lead up to that. So it was easy for me to kind of see where it's going. If you just sort of extrapolate the points on a curve, and I see that trend will continue, then we will have profound artificial intelligence, and obviously at a level that far exceeds human intelligence.

2:04So, but I'm glad to see at this point that people are taking safety seriously, and I'd like to say thank you for holding this AI safety conference. I think actually it will go out on in history as being very important. I think it's really quite profound. And I do think overall that the potential is there for

2:27artificial intelligence, AI, to have most likely a positive effect. And to create a future of abundance where there is no scarcity of goods and services. But it is somewhat of the magic genie problem, if you have a magic genie that can grant all the wishes. Usually those stories don't end well.

2:52Be careful what you wish for, including wishes. Yeah. So you talked a little bit about the summit, and thank you for being engaged in it, which has been great, and people enjoyed having you there. Potter's been in this dialogue. Now, one of the things that we achieved today in the meetings between the companies and the leaders was an agreement that externally, ideally governments,

3:18should be doing safety testing of models before they're released. I think this is something that you've spoken about a little bit. It was something we worked really hard on, because my job in government is to say, hang on, there is a potential risk here. Not a definite risk, but a potential risk of something that could be bad.

3:36My job is to protect the country. And we can only do that if we develop the capability we need in our safety institute, and then go in and make sure we can test the models before they are released. Delighted that that happened today, but what's your view on what we should be doing?

3:51You've talked about the potential risk, right? Again, we don't know. But what are the types of things governments like us should be doing to manage and mitigate against those risks? Well, I generally think that it is good for government play a role when the public safety is at risk.

4:06So really, for the vast majority of software, the public safety is not at risk. I mean, if the app crashes on your phone, you're a laptop, it's not a massive catastrophe. But when you're talking about digital superintelligence, I think, which does pose a risk to the public, then there is a role for government to play to safeguard the interests of the public.

4:29And this is, of course, true in many fields, aviation, cars. And I deal with regulators throughout the world because of starting communications, rockets being aerospace, and cars being transport. So I'm very familiar with dealing with regulators. And I actually agree with the vast majority of regulations.

4:50There's a few that I disagree with from time to time, but 0.1% probably. Less than 1% of regulations I disagree with. And there is some concern from people in Silicon Valley who have never dealt with regulators before and they think that this is going to just crush innovation and slow them down and

5:09be annoying. And it will be annoying, it's true. They're not wrong about that. But I think there's, we've learned over the years that having a referee is a good thing. And if you look at any sports game, there's always a referee and nobody's suggesting I think to have a sports game without one.

5:34And I think that's the right way to think about this is for government to be a referee to make sure the sportsman like conduct and that the public safety is addressed, that we care about public safety. Because I think there might be at times too much optimism about technology. And I say that as a technologist, I mean, so I ought to know.

5:57And on balance, I think the AI will be a forceful good, most likely, but the probability of it going bad is not zero percent. So we just need to mitigate the downside potential. And then how you talk about referee, and that's what we're talking about. Yeah. Well, there we go. We talk about this, and Demis and I discussed this a long time ago.

6:23They're literally facing right end of it. Actually, you know, Demis to his credit and the credit of people in the industry did say that to him. I think you would say it's not right that Demis and his colleagues are marking their own homework, right? There needs to be someone independent and that's why we've developed the Safety Institute here.

6:39I mean, do you think governments can develop the expertise? One of the things we need to do is they hang on, you know, Demis and all the others have got a lot of very smart people doing this. Governments need to quickly tool up capability-wise personnel-wise, which is what we're doing.

6:54I mean, do you think it is possible for governments to do that fast enough, given how quickly the technology is developing, or what do we need to do to make sure we do it quick enough? No, I think it's a great point you're making. The pace of AI is faster than any technology I've seen in history by far, and it seems to

7:14be growing in capability by at least five full, perhaps ten full per year. It will certainly grow by an order of magnitude next year. So, and government isn't used to moving at that speed. But I think even if there are not firm regulations, even if there isn't an enforcement capability, so we're having insight and being able to highlight concerns to the public will be very powerful.

7:44So, even if that's all that's accomplished, I think that will be very, very good. Okay, well hopefully we can do better than that. Hopefully, yeah. No, but that's how fast you know. We were talking before it was striking you know you're someone who spent their life in technology living Moore's law and

8:00What was interesting over the last couple of days talking to everyone who's doing the development of this? And I think you can cover this is it's just the pace of advancement here is unlike anything Yeah, all of you have seen in your careers and technology is that fair because you've got these kind of compounding

8:16effects from the hardware and and the data and the personnel Yeah, I mean, the two, currently the two leading centers for AI development are the San Francisco Bay Area and the sort of London area. And there are many other places where it's being done, but those are the two leading areas.

8:34So I think if the United States and the UK and China are sort of aligned on safety, that's will be a good thing. So that's where the leadership is generally. And actually, you mentioned China there. So I took a decision to invite China to submit over the last few days. And it was not an easy decision.

8:59A lot of people criticized me for it. My view is if you're going to try and have serious conversation, you need to. But what were your thoughts? You did business all around the world. You just talked about it there. Should we be engaging with them? Can we trust them? Is that the right thing to have done?

9:13If China is not on board with AI safety, it's somewhat of a mood situation. The single biggest objection that I get to in AI regulation or safety controls are, well, China's not going to do it and therefore they will just jump into the lead and exceed us all. But actually, China is willing to debate in AI safety.

9:38And thank you for inviting them. And they, you know, I think we should thank China for attending. When I was in China earlier this year, my main subject of discussion with the leadership in China was AI safety and saying that this is really something that they should care about and they took it seriously and URT, which is great.

10:04And having them here, I think, was essential really. If they're not participants, it's pointless. Yes, yes. And I think we were pleased. They were engaged yesterday in the discussions, and actually ended up signing the same communique that everyone else did, which is a good start.

10:19As we need everyone to approach this in a similar way, if we're going to have a realistic chance of resolving it. You talked about innovation earlier and regulation being annoying. There was a good debate today we had about open source. And I think you've kind of been a proponent of algorithmic transparency and making some of the X algorithms public.

10:40And actually, we were talking about every hinted on the way in. He's particularly been very concerned about open source models being used by bad actors. You've got a group of people who say they are critical to innovation happening in that distributed way. It's probably no perfect answer, and there is a tricky balance.

10:59What are your thoughts on how we should approach this open source question? or where should we be targeting whatever regulatory or monitoring that we're going to do? Well, the open source algorithms and data tend to lag the closed source by six to 12 months. But given the rate of improvement, that this actually therefore quite a big difference between the closed source and the open.

11:27If things are improving by a factor of the take-by or more than being a year behind is your five times worst. So it's a pretty big difference. And that might be actually an okay situation. But it certainly will get to the point where you've got open source AI that can do, that will start to approach human level intelligence will perhaps succeed it.

11:52I don't know quite what to do about it. I think it's somewhat inevitable. There'll be some amount of open source tonight. I guess I would have a slight bias towards open source, because at least you can see what's going on. It was closed source, you don't know what's going on. Now, it should be said with AI that even if it's an open source, do you actually know what's going on?

12:10Because if you've got a gigantic data file and sort of billions of data points or weights and parameters, you can't just read it and see what it's going to do. It's a gigantic file of inscrutable numbers. You can test it when you run it. You can test it. You can run a bunch of tests to see what it's going to do.

12:33But it's probabilistic as opposed to deterministic. It's not like traditional programming where you've got to sort of discrete logic. And the outcome is very predictable. And you can read each line and see what each line's going to do. a neural net is just a whole bunch of probabilities.

12:56I mean, it sort of ends up being a giant comma separated value file. It's like our digital guide is a CSV file, really? Hahaha. Hahaha. Okay. But that is kind of what it is. Yeah. Now, at that point you've just made, it's one that we have been talking about a lot because, again, conversation with the people that are developing their technology make the point that you've just made.

13:19It is not like normal software where there's predictability about inputs improving, leading to this particular output improving. And as the models iterate and improve, we don't quite know what's gonna come out the other end that Demis would agree with that, which is why I think there is this bias that we need to get in there while the training runs are being done, before the models are released to understand what is this new iteration brought about in terms of capability, which it sounds like you would agree with.

13:47I was going to shift gears a little bit. You've talked a lot about human consciousness, human agency, which actually might strike people as strange, given that you are known for being such a brilliant innovator in technologists. But it's quite heartfelt when I hear you talk about it and the importance of maintaining that agency in technology and preserving human consciousness.

14:08Now, the thing I was going to ask is, when I do interviews or talk to people out and about in this job, that AI, the thing that comes up most, actually, is probably not so much the stuff we've been talking about, but jobs. It's what does AI mean for my job? Is it going to mean that I don't have a job, or my kids are not going to have a job?

14:25Now, my answer as a policy maker, as a leader, is actually AI is already creating jobs. And you can see that in the companies that are starting. Also, the way it's being used is a little bit more as a co-pilot, necessarily versus replacing the person. There's still human agency, but it's helping you your job better, which is a good thing.

14:47And as we've seen with technological revolutions in the past, clearly there's change in the labor market in the amount of jobs that I was quoting an MIT study today that they did a couple of years ago, something like 60% of the jobs at that moment didn't exist 40 years ago, so hard to predict.

15:02And my job is to create an incredible education system, whether it's at school, whether it's retraining people at any point in their career, because ultimately if we've got a skilled population and they ought to keep up with the pace of change and have a good life. But it's still a concern.

15:16And what would your observation be on AI and the impact on labor markets and people's jobs and how they should feel about that as they think about this? Well, I think we are seeing the most disruptive force in history here. We have for the first time, we will have the first time something that is smarter than the smartest human. And that, I mean, it's hard to say exactly what that moment is, but there will come a

15:47point where no job is needed. You can have a job if you want to have a job for sort of personal satisfaction, but the AI will be able to do everything. So, I don't know if that makes people comfortable, uncomfortable. Well, it's, it's, you know, that's why, that's That's why I say if you wish for a magic genie, that gives you any wishes you want.

16:12And there's no limit. You don't have those three-wish limits, if not since you just have many wishes you want. So it's both good and bad. One of the challenges in the future will be how do we find meaning in life if you have a magic genie that can do everything you want? I do think it's hard when this new technology

16:34tends to usually follow an S curve. In this case, we're going to be on the exponential portion of the S curve for a long time. And you're really likely to be able to ask for anything. And we want to have universal basic income. We'll have universal high income. So in some sense, it'll be somewhat of a leveler or equalizer.

16:57Because really, I think everyone will have access this magic genie. And you're able to ask any question. It'll be certainly good for education. It'll be the best tutor. And then the most patient tutor. So they're all there. And there will be no shortage of goods and services. There will be an age of abundance.

17:19I think if I'd recommend people read in banks, the banks culture books are probably the best envisioning. In fact, not probably. They're definitely by far the best envisioning of an AI future. There's nothing you're in close. So I'd really recommend banks. I'm a very big fan. All these books are good.

17:41There's not every one, all of them. So that'll give you a sense of what is a fairly utopian or pro-topian future with AI. which is good from a, as you said, it's a universal high income, which is a nice phrase, and it's good from a materialistic sense, and your abundance, actually, that it then leads to the question that you pose, right?

18:10I'm somebody who believes work gives you meaning, like I think a lot about that, as I think work is a good thing, it gives people purpose in their lives, and if you then remove a large chunk of that, what does that mean, and where do you get that? Where do you get that drive, that motivation, that purpose?

18:26I mean, you were talking about it, you work a lot of hours. I was mentioning when we were talking earlier, I have to somewhat engage in deliberate suspension of disbelief because I'm putting so much blood, sweat and tears into a work project and burning the 3 AM oil. Then I'm like, wait, why am I doing this?

18:45I can just wait for the AI to do it. I'm just lashing myself for no reason. I'm just being glad for punishment or something. So we call them, call Demes and tell them to hurry up and then you can have a holiday, right? It's a plug. Yeah, no, it's a, look, it's a tricky thing because I think, you know, part of our job

19:06is to make sure that we can navigate to that very, I think, largely positive place that you're describing. It is like, and how much people throw it between now and then because these things bring a lot about a change in the labor market as we've seen. Yeah. I think it's probably is generally a good thing because, you know, there are a lot of jobs that are uncomfortable or dangerous or which sort of tedious. And the computer will

19:30have no problem doing that. They're happy to do that all day long. So, you know, it's fun to cook food, but it's not that fun to wash the dishes. And like, but the computer's perfectly happy to wash the dishes. I guess there is, you know, we still have sports, like where humans compete in like the Olympics. And obviously, a machine can go faster than

19:52any human, but we still have humans race against each other. And have these sports competitions against each other, where even though the machines are better, we're still, I guess, competing to see who can be the best human at something. And people do find fulfillment in that. So I guess that's perhaps a good example of how even when machines are faster than us stronger than us.

20:14We still find a way. We still enjoy competing against other humans, so at least the human is the best human. That's a good analogy. And we've been talking a lot about managing the risks. Before we move on and finish on AI, it's just talking a little bit about the opportunities. You're engaged in lots of different companies, neuro-looking and obvious one.

20:36Which is doing some exciting stuff. You touched on the thing that I'm probably most excited about, which is an education. And I think many people will have seen Sal Khan's video from earlier this year has talked about, as you talked about, it's like a personal tutor at Edge. an amazing personal tutor.

20:52An amazing personal tutor. And we know the difference in learning, having that personal tutor is incredible compared to class from learning. So if you can have every child have a personal tutor, specifically for them, that then just evolves with them over time. That could be extraordinary.

21:05And so that, for me, I look at it, I think, gosh, that is within reach at this point. And that's one of the benefits I'm most excited about. When you look at the landscape of things that you see as possible, what is it that you are particularly excited about? I think certainly AI tutors are going to be amazing.

21:25Perhaps already are. I think there's also perhaps companionship, which may seem odd, because how can the computer really be your friend. But if you have an AI that has memory and remembers all of your interactions and has read everything, you can say like give it permission to read everything you've ever done.

21:43So it really will know you better than anyone, perhaps even yourself. where you can talk to it every day and those conversations hold upon each other, you will actually have a great friend. As long as that friend can stay, your friend did not get turned off or something. Don't turn off my friends.

22:00But I think that will actually be a real thing. And one of my sons has some learning disabilities and has trouble making friends actually. And I was like, well, you know, he, the AI friend would actually be grateful. Oh, okay. Yeah, that was a surprising answer, but that's actually worth reflecting on.

22:24So it's really interesting. I mean, we're already seeing it actually as we deliver, you know, psychotherapy anyway, now doing far more by digitally and by telephone to people. And it's making a huge difference, and you can see a world in which actually, you know, AI can provide that social benefit to people.

22:40And just a quick question on X, and then we should open it up to everybody. You made a change when you made many changes. But one of the changes- Yeah, quite a few. You love that letter. Yeah. I've got a real thing about it. You really do. You really do. One of the changes, which kind of, it goes into the space that we have to operate in,

23:03and this balance between free speech and moderation is, you know, we grapple with as politicians. you were grappling with your inversion of that. And you moved away from a manual human way of doing it, the moderation to the community notes. And I think it was an interesting change.

23:23It's not what everyone else has done. What was the reasoning behind that? Why do you think that is a better way to do that? Yeah, part of the problem is if you're in power people as sensors, then there's going to be some amount of bias. they have, and then whoever points the senses is effectively in control of information.

23:44So then the idea behind theory notes is how do we have a consensus driven, I mean, so it's not really censoring it, but consensus driven approach to truth. How do we make things the least amount untrue? You can say like, you can't perhaps get to pure truth, but you can aspire to be more

24:06truthful. So the thing about community notes is it doesn't actually delete anything, it simply adds context. Now that context could be, this thing is untrue for the following reasons. But importantly with community notes, everything is open source, actually, so you can see the software, every line of the software,

24:28you can see all of the data that went into a community note and you can independently create that community note. So if you've got, if you see manipulation of the data, You can actually highlight that and say, well, this, there appears to be some gaming of the system. And you can suggest improvements.

24:45So it's maximum transparency, which is combined with the kind of wisdom of the crowds and transparency to get to a better answer. And really, one of the key elements of community notes is that in order for a note to be shown, people who have historically disagreed must agree. And there is a bit of AI usage here.

25:05So this will populate a parameter space around each contributed to community notes. And then a parameter space. So everyone's got basically these vectors associated with them. Which is not as simple as Rijolift. It's saying it's several hundred vectors because things are more complicated than something right or left.

25:28And then we'll do sort of inverse correlation. say like, okay, these people generally disagree, but they agree about this note. And so then that gives the note credibility. Yeah, that's the core of it. And it's working quite well. I get to see a note actually be present for more than a few hours that is incorrect.

25:53So the batting average is extremely good. And when I ask people, so they're worried about community notes sort of being disinformation like send me one, and then they can't. So I think it's quite good. I mean, the general aspiration is what the X platform is to inform and entertain the public and to be as accurate as possible and as truthful as possible, even if someone doesn't like the truth.

26:18You know, people that always like the truth. No. It's not always. But that's the aspiration. And I think if we stay true to the truth, then I think we'll find that people use the system to learn what is going on and to learn. I think actually truth pays. So I think it will be, assuming you don't want to engage in self-tolution, then

26:45I think it's the smart move. Excellent. Very helpful. Right. Let's open it up to all our guests here. We've got some microphones, they'll come up, they'll come and find you. We've got yes, go for it. Thank you. Good evening, Alice Bentink from Entrepreneur First. Thank you for a fascinating conversation. I suppose a question for each of you.

27:10Prime Minister, the UK has some of the best universities in the world. We have the talent. What will it take for the UK to be a real breeding ground for unicorn companies? And Elon, being a founder in the UK is still a non-obvious career choice for the most exceptional technical talent.

27:28What are the cultural elements that we need to put into place to change this? Thank you both. Well, you want to go first? Go for it. Sure. You're right that there are cultural elements where the culture should celebrate creating new companies. And there should be a bias towards supporting small

27:53companies, because they're the ones that need nurturing the larger companies really don't need nurturing. So you can think of it sort of like a God, and if it's a little sprout that needs nurturing, if it's a mighty oak, it doesn't need quite as much. So I think that is a mindset change that is important.

28:12But I should mention that London and San Francisco or the Bay Area are really the two senses for AI. So London is actually doing very well on that front. The two leading locations on a, you know, San Francisco is probably head of London, but London's really very strong. Or London area, greater London, home counties, I guess.

28:38I'll keep going, keep going. So I'm just saying objectively this is the case. But you do need that, you need the infrastructure, you need landlords who are willing to rent to new companies, you need law firms and accountants that are willing to support new companies. And it's generally a mind, it is a mindset change.

29:03And I think some of that is happening, but I think really it's just culturally people need to decide this is a good thing. Yeah. No, actually, well, thanks for what you said about the UK. It's something that we work hard on, lots of people in the room are part of what makes this a fabulous place for any of the companies, including Alice.

29:20So, Alice White says, my job is to get all the nuts and bolts right, make sure that all of you starting companies can raise a capital that you need, everything from your seed funding with our incredible EIS tax reliefs all the way through to your late stage rounds and we need reform of our pension funds and the Chancellor's got a bunch of incredible reforms to unlock

29:43capital from all the people who have it and deploy it into growth equity, right? That is a work in progress. We're not there yet. I think we're making good progress. We need talent, we need people. So that means an education system that prioritizes the things that matter. And you've seen my reforms.

29:58I go on about more maths, more maths, more maths. But I think that is important. But also attracting the best and the brightest here. If you look at our fastest growing companies in this country, and I think it's probably the same in the US, over half of them have a non-British founder.

30:15And that tells you we've got to be a place that is open to the world's best and brightest entrepreneurial talent. So the visa regime that we've put in place, I think, does that. Makes it easy for those people to come here. And then actually, it's the thing that we spent the beginning of the session talking about, the regulation.

30:30Making sure that we've got a regulatory system that's pro-innovation, that, yeah, of course, we always need guardrails on the things that we'll worry us, but we've got to create a space for people to innovate and do different things. Those are all my jobs. The thing that is tougher is the thing that Elon talked about, which is culture.

30:47is how do you transpose that culture from places like Silicon Valley across the world where people are unafraid to give up the security of a regular paycheck to go and start something and be comfortable with failure. You talk about that a lot. I think you talk about it more in when you're playing games, right?

31:05But you've got to be comfortable failing and knowing that that's just part of the process. And that is a tricky cultural thing to do overnight, but it's an important part of, I think, creating that kind of environment. Yeah, if you don't succeed with your first startup, it shouldn't be a catastrophic career ending.

31:20Exactly. It should be, well, good. I think you're doing it. It should be like, well, you gave it a good shot. And now try again. Exactly. Yeah. So one thing I was going to mention is, obviously, creating a company is sort of a high risk, high reward situation. But I don't know quite what this works in the UK.

31:42I think it's probably better than Continental Europe. But the stock options are very difficult in most parts. You're not sure how to do it. But if somebody's basically going to risk the sort of life savings and the vast majority of startups fail. So I mean, you hear about the startups that succeed.

32:02But most companies are, most startups consist of a massive amount of work followed by failure. That's actually most companies. And so it's a high risk higher award. And so the higher award part does need to be there for it to make a sense. I think that was a very soft pitch for a tax policy.

32:23I mean, Charles, but actually I can tell you. So look, AI agree. So we have, I think, relative to certainly European countries, but certainly the US is definitely California, a much lower rate of capital gains tax. So for those people who are risking and growing something, we think the reward should be there at the end.

32:41So 20% capital gains tax rate. And on stock options, I don't know if we've got anyone from index ventures in the room. So index one of our leading VC funds here. They do a regular report looking at most countries' tax treatment of stock options. And when I was chancellor at Treasury Secretary equivalent,

33:03we were, I think, down at, we were pretty good, but we were fourth or fifth. And I said, we need to, for exactly the reason that you mentioned, I was like, this has got to be the best place for innovators. We need to move that up. And I think in the last iteration of that report, we had, because of the changes that Jeremy and I have made, we have moved up to, I think, second from memory.

33:22So I hope that actually give you and everyone else some comfort that we recognize that's important. Because when people work hard and risk things, yeah, they should be able to enjoy the rewards of that. I respect the rewards. And I think we very much have a tax system that supports that.

33:35And those are the values that I believe in, and I think most of us in this room probably do as well. Right, next question. I've got seven in front of me, and then I'll come over here. John, John, sir. Thanks very much. We've talked about some really big ideas, global changing ideas.

33:53I'm really interested, particularly in the context of creation of science and technology super hubs and so on, how does that map onto the everyday lives of people living in, say, Austin, Texas, to choose one around you more, in my case, Nottingham, East Midlands. How do you see that evolving for people every day?

34:12be sort of everyday effects of AI? Yeah. For context, Elon, so Seb runs our equivalent of CVS, right, or Walgreens, so, you know, when actually I visited, right, so he's got millions of people coming in in his shops every day and it's making sure, how do we make this relevant, I think Seb is your question, how is this relevant to that person?

34:34You know, actually, let me go first on that, because I think it's a fair point. I was just going over with the team, a couple of things that we're doing, because I was saying like, how are we doing AI right now that it's making a difference to people's lives? And we have this thing called Gov.UK, which is when it happened several years ago was a pioneering thing.

34:55All the government information brought together on one website, Gov.UK. So you need to get a driving license, passport, any interaction with government, it was centralized in a very relatively easy to use way. It's better than most, better than most. Yeah, so we are about to deploy AI across that platform. So that is something that I think several million people a day use,

35:19right? So a large chunk of the population is interacting with gov.uk every single day to do all these day-to-day tasks, right? Every one of your customers is doing all those things. And so we're about to deploy AI into that to make that whole process so much easier. Because some people will be like, well, I'm currently here and I've lost my passport and my flights

35:40in five hours, at the moment that would require how many steps to figure out what you do. Actually, when we deploy the AI, it should be that you could just literally say that and boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. This is what we're going to do, walk you through it. And that's going to benefit millions and millions of people every single day, right?

35:56Because that's a very practical way in my seat that I can start using this technology to help people in their day-to-day lives, not just healthcare discoveries and everything else that we're also doing. I thought that's quite a powerful demonstration of literally your day-to-day customer

36:11seeing actually their just day-to-day life get a little bit easier because of something that Elon Demis and others in this room have helped create. Yeah, exactly. The most immediate thing is just being able to ask, like having a very smart friend that you can ask anything, you know, ask how to make something, how to solve

36:29any problem and it'll tell you. And obviously companies are going to adopt this. So I think we'll have much better customer service, I guess, essentially. That'll probably be the first thing you notice. And then we talked about education. So having a tutor, so if you're trying to understand a subject like having a phenomenal tutor on any subject,

36:59that's really pretty much there already almost. And we need to, obviously AI needs to stop hallucinating before, you know, it can't give you, I mean, we still have a little bit of a problem where it can give you an answer that's confidently wrong with great grammar. And, you know, in a bullet points and everything in citations it was not real.

37:20So that's to be okay, we need to make sure it's, It's not giving you confidently wrong tutor answers. But that's going to happen pretty quickly, where it is actually correct. So yeah. I'm going to say for any parent who was homeschooling during COVID and realizing what their kids needed to be helped with, that will come as an enormous relief, I think.

37:43Yeah. Very, very good. Right. And we've got quite let's go questions over here. We've got, we've got any microphones or Brent, are you there? Perfect. Hi, Brent Hoebman. So you've spoken eloquently about abundance and the age of abundance. So it feels obviously with AI, it's everything everywhere, everywhere all at once.

38:02But with robots, and to get the age of abundance, we'll need a lot of robots. I know you're working on robots as well. Are there sort of constraints that we should think of and our politicians should be thinking of, that we might get, one country might get heavily behind in robots that can do all these things and enter the age of abundance, and therefore be at a strategic disadvantage?

38:24Well, really anything that can be actuated by a computer is effectively a robot. So you can think of, frankly, Tesla cause our robots on wheels. Anything that's connected to the internet is effectively an endpoint actuator for artificial intelligence. So you've got Boston Dynamics.

38:49Obviously, they've been making impressive robots for a while. I think they're at this point mostly owned by Hyundai. So I guess who is probably going to make robots that are humanoid and some rather interesting shapes that I wasn't just making the one that looks like it has wheels and looks sort of like a kangaroo on wheels.

39:08I'm not sure what that is. Looks a little demented, frankly. But there's going to be all sorts of robots. You have a company Dyson in the UK, which I think is some pretty impressive things. I think the UK will not be behind, actually, on that front. UK also has Arm, which is really the best, one of the best, perhaps the best in chip design

39:42in the world. It tells they use a lot of Arm technology, almost everyone does, actually. So I think UK is in a strong position. Germany obviously makes a lot of robots, industrial robots. I mean, I think generally countries that make robots of any kind, even if they seem somewhat

40:03conventional, will be fine. I do think there is a safety concern, especially with humanoid robots, because at least the car can't chase you into this building, not very easily. or chase you off a tree, or you can sort of run up a flight of stairs and get away from a Tesla. I think it was a Stephen King movie about that.

40:31A few targets possessed. But if you have a humanoid robot, it can basically chase you anywhere. So I think we should have some kind of hardwired local cut-off that you can't update from the internet. So anything that can be software updated from the internet, obviously, can be overridden.

40:52But if you have a local sort of off switch where you have say a keyword or something and then that puts the robot into a safe state, some kind of localized safe state ability, an off switch where you don't have to get too close to the robot. I don't know, so if you've got millions of these things going all over the place.

41:15You're not selling it. Just, you know, like so. I know. I'm saying, is this something we should be quite concerned about? Because Robert can follow you anywhere, then what if they just one day get a software update and they're not so friendly anymore? We've got a James Cameron movie on our hands.

41:37It's actually, it's funny you saying that because in our session that we had today, I would say, they made exactly the same point, right? They were talking about, they're talking talking about movies, actually, about mentioning James Cameron, they're talking about James Cameron movies.

41:51And so they're saying, if you think about it, it's not just those movies, but any of these movies trains, subways, metros, or as buses, they said all these movies with the same plot fundamentally all end with the person turning it off, right, or finding a way to shut the thing down and they were making the same point that you were about the importance of

42:12actual physical off switches. is. All the technology is great, but fundamentally this same movie has played out 50 times. We've all watched it and all fundamentally, you know, point of view, right? Or ends in pretty much the same way with someone finding a way to just do the thing. Which is kind of interesting

42:29that you've said a similar point, right? It's not the obvious place you'd go to. Maybe that could be one of the tests for the AI. We should say like, blank is your favorite of the James Cameron movie, film in the blank. Yeah, excellent, right. Yes, we got over there, yep, perfect.

42:51Hi, a question for you both. So I'm a founder of AI and ML scale up in the third centre for AI, which is Leeds in the North England, a bit biased. Since the launch of chat GPT, three months after that, we saw a real increase in phishing attacks using much more sophisticated language patterns.

43:10What do we do to protect businesses, consumers, that they trust this technology better? And how do we bring them along that journey with us? Well, I think we shouldn't trust it that much, actually. It is actually quite a significant challenge, because we're going to the point where even open source AI can pass human capture tests.

43:33So this is, are you a human? Identify all the traffic lights in this picture. like, okay, yeah, it's going to have no problem doing that. In fact, it'll do it better than the human and faster than the human. So we're like, how do you, you know, it's the point of which is better, a better human, better passing human tests than humans, then, well,

43:52what tests actually make sense? That is a real problem. I don't actually have a good solution to it. That's one of the things we're trying to figure out on the X platform is how to deal with that because it really are at the point where even with open source, you know, readily available AI, you don't need to be sort of leading the field, you can actually be better than humans at passing these tests. And that's sort of why we think, well, perhaps

44:18we should sort of charge a dollar or a pound a year. It's a very tiny amount of money, but it still makes it privately expensive to make a million bots. So, and especially if you a million payment methods, then you run out of sort of stolen credit cards pretty quickly. So that's sort of where we're thinking like we might have to sort of just charge some very tiny amount of money, 0.3 cents a day effectively, to deal with the onslaught of

44:50AI-powered bonds. And that is still a growing problem, but it will be I think perhaps an insurmountable problem next year. And then you have to worry about manipulation of information. Making something seem very popular when it's not because it's getting boosted by all these likes and repos from AI powered bots.

45:15So that's why I sort of think somewhat inevitably it leads to some small payment in order to dramatically increase the cost of a bot. So I think frankly, I think probably any social media system that doesn't do that will simply be overrun by bots. I think my general answer would be we need to show that we are on top of mitigating the

45:41risk, so people can trust the technology. That's what actually the last couple of days has been about on the safety summit is just showing we're investing in the safety institute, having the people who can do the research on these things to figure out how we mitigate against them, and we have to do

45:57it fast and we have to keep iterating it. Because all of us probably in this room believe that the technology can be incredibly powerful, but we've got to make sure we bring people along that journey with us that we're handling the risks that are there. And there's a job to do in the last couple of days. I think we make good progress on it because we want to focus

46:14on the positives and manage these things. But that requires action and that's what the last couple of days have been about. Your analogy there was part of the research that actually the team working on the task force here, published and presented yesterday, I don't know if you saw it, was which is essentially that.

46:35It was a using AI to create a ton of fake profiles on social media and then infiltrate particular groups with particular information. And at the moment, that is, as I said to your point, I know it's like cost free. It's getting to the point where it's like, really you're gonna have a hundred for a penny sort of thing, ridiculous.

46:56And if you think about some of these social networks at what a neighborhood or town level, it's not that many big profiles that you quickly create, suddenly they're everywhere, and there's some local issue that might be of importance, and the team have run versions of how that looked like, and suddenly they're interacting with everybody, and then spreading misinformation around.

47:13Yeah, that's a real challenge. We literally as part of the research that we published on misinformation yesterday, it's a real challenge. Yeah, exactly, a two point. I mean, the images, you don't even need to steal somebody's picture, because that's traceable, but you can actually just say create a new

47:30image of a person, realistic looking, it doesn't exist, and then create a biography, realistic, but doesn't exist, and do that en masse. And practically the only way a bill tells us that the grammar is too good. Take it away. So typos, come on. Now I'm getting waved at, because I think we are out of time.

47:51I don't think we take one very brief last question. And let's make a good one. Yes, sir. Go on your own front and be calm. Elon, question for you. Related to the X platform. Are there simple things we can do, especially when it comes to visual media? You alluded to the fact that it's fairly straightforward and effectively free to make people like yourselves say and do things that you never said or did.

48:16Can we do something like cryptographically signed media? I'm from Adobe. We're working on this project. Twitter was a member. Love to see X come back. digitally signed media to indicate not only what was created by AI, but what came from a camera, what was real to imbue a sense of trust in media that can go viral.

48:32That's something a good idea actually. So some way of dedicating would be good. So yeah, that sounds like a good idea, I wish we could probably do it. Yeah. There you go. Actually, on that point, I've already, so this is particularly pertinent for people in my job, right? And I've already had a situation happen to me with a doctored image

48:58that goes everywhere, negative. By the time everyone realizes, well, that's fake and we should stop sending it, the damage is done. And actually, we were, again, reflecting today. If you think next year, you've got elections in, you know, I think, you know, the U.S., India, I think Indonesia, probably here. There you go. Massive news. And actually, you've

49:23You've got just an enormous chunk of the world's population is voting next year. You got EU elections as well. These issues are right in front of us. Next year is where big elections across the globe, probably the first set of elections where this has been a real issue. So figuring out how we manage that is, I think, kind of mission critical for people

49:45who want the integrity of our democracy. Yeah. I mean, some of it is quite interesting. Like the Pope in the Papa jacket, have you seen that one? That's amazing. But I mean, I still run into people who think that's real. I'm like, well, one of the odds he's wearing a puffer jacket in July in Rome.

50:02He'd be sweating. But it actually looked quite dashing, I think. In fact, I think AI fashion is going to be a real thing. So I've been doing it clearly. We live in the most interesting times. And I think this is 80% likely to be good. And 20% bad. I think if we're cognizant and careful about the bad part, on balance actually, it will be the future that we want.

50:25Or the future that is preferable. And it actually will be somewhat of a leveler, an equalizer in the sense that, I think everyone will have access to goods and services and education. And so, I think probably it leads to more human happiness. So I guess I'd probably leave on an optimistic note.

50:45Yeah. Yeah. Well, that is a great note to end on. I think we're all on that better future. I think it's there. The promise of it is certainly there. Lots of people in this room, including yourselves, are working hard to make it happen. Our job in government is to make sure it happens safely.

51:00But on the basis of this conversation in the last couple of days, I'm certainly leaving more confident that we can make that happen. It's been a huge privilege and a pleasure to have you here. Well, thank you very much for having me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I think previously...